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An argument I got into with RJ and CS.
RJ: Basherts are predestined... 40 days before yetziras havlad [a child is conceived], a voice calls out: Daughter of So-and-So to Son of So-and-So.... clearly our basherts were allocated to us long ago.
TJG: Yeah, well, there is also a gemara stating that at every stage in life a person has a different potential bashert.
RJ: But Rav Moshe Feinstein says: whoever believes their spouse was always their bashert is blessed. Whoever doesn't will suffer.
CS: Personally, I wouldn't take that Gemara too seriously.
TJG: Yeah, CS, that helps. Just discard the gemaras you don't like. That will get us real far in non-apikoresville.
RJ: Basically, just believe it's your bashert and you'll be fine.
TJG: And what about Rav Shach who says that almost any girl can make it work with any guy? Doesn't sound exactly predestined bashertlike to me....
And anyway, if I ended up doing something else in life, I would probably end up with a guy different to the guy who would be in my life now...
And perhaps the message of Rav Moshe was that one shouldn't be married with the attitude that they are stuck with the wrong person. After the commitment, believe that you were meant to be or chose to be with this person (with exclusion of abusive cases or other cases where divorce is necessary). Just thinking, in a JewGirl way.
Anyhow, I was wondering if you believe that your bashert is predestined and that you have to find him or that you choose your marriage partner and then make it work...
Could I transcend the dichotomous choice that you present and personally say I believe in both a predestined bashert & a chosen partner to work with? How about the person you marry and live with happily for 50 years becomes your bashert retroactively (lemafreah). Also isnt this another variance of the classic hishtadlus/bitachon dilemma?
ReplyDeleteI agree with S&W that it's both. I think Hashem sends you the right person for where you are holding in life, and by choosing to marry him you officially make him your bashert.
ReplyDeleteBashert does not mean someone who you have to marry. Bashert is a tool to make it easier to achieve your mission in life. One can achieve it also without their bashert. One can marry someone that isnt their bashert and have a long beautiful wonderful marriage. Bashert has become overblown in the recent times.
ReplyDeleteI think the way many people understand "bashert" nowadays is something like this - "a person who has been crafted to fit me and make me happy" which is ridiculously arrogant and self-serving.
ReplyDeleteNo human being is destined or designed to make us happy. The idea of making a marriage work by definition requires work.
Who says that has anything to do with whether two people are meant to be together? In fact, I believe it's very much the opposite - the purpose of intimacy is to work and learn and grow most from the relationship, not to just have everything so simply and easily served up to us.
One's marriage partner is an "eizer k'negdo," (life partner) NOT an "eved" (servant/slave).
Taking a very non-religious stance, I personally do not believe in "bashert". i believe there are a number of people out there you can build a world with, not just one. The key, to me, is to recognize a person who has the qualities you like, who you are attracted to and who you can see yourself l;iving with, THEN working really really hard to make it work.
ReplyDeleteI think Ish is right to an extent that it's pretty silly to just assume that your bashert will be served to you on a silver platter - what that does is take all the work out of the equation. Also, how then do you accout for all the divorces? That people are accidentally marrying the non-bashert? It's crazy.
I believe that every person has a bashert, a soul mate. Maybe I'm wrong and that's why I'm still single ;-(. I agree that one has to work on his or her marriage whether they're married to their bashert or not but feeling a soul connection with the person you are married to will make that work a lot easier and more worthwhile. Nothing is perfect and no marriage is perfect but a person has to feel that their spouse is the only person in the world he or she could have married... and that's what I'm waiting for...my soul-mate.
ReplyDelete