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As we are trying to chit chat about nothing too important, Friend 1 mentions the fact that she enjoyed making kiddush at her meal the night before.
Friend 2 asks if there were men at the table.
There were.
Friend 2 flips and starts screaming at Friend 1 that she is changing tradition, reforming Judaism, ignoring the rabbis, defying the spirit of the law, etc...
Friend 1 is shocked at the insults being hurled in her direction completely out of nowhere and tries to respond by saying she consulted with rabbis, she quotes the source from Mehabber in Orah Hayyim 271:2.
Friend 2 really couldn't care less about the rabbis and tells Friend 1 that she will never eat by her again and then, then comes the biggest threat aka the shidduch threat. "I had guys I would set you up with. Now I wouldn't set you up with anyone! You hear me???"
I try to calm them down. I ask Friend 1 to continue the conversation another time, and I ask Friend 2 to quiet the tiger within her. She screams at me: "If you support Friend 1, I am never going to eat by you either!"
I am sitting there not knowing what hit me. The last thing I want to be doing is being in the crossfire of the Kiddush crisis!
The reason I bring this all up is because I want to know how controversial it is for a woman to make Kiddush or Hamotzi in the presence of men. Is it appropriate? For you, would it be a deal breaker in shidduchim?
I don't feel a burning need to make kiddush and hamotzi every single week, however, when I brought up the idea of potentially making kiddush or challah on occasion to see if the guy is flexible, he flipped on me.
In case you were wondering, we never married each other.
I hope it is okay if I post. Until now I have been a lurker, having reached your blog after seeing it referenced on a former student's blog.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that there is halacha and there is what people are comfortable with. More yeshivish tend to go based on what is communally acceptable while MO tend to be willing to do what it says in the Shulchan Aruch even if it is not the norm. Of course I'm pretty sure that flipping out on someone is not good according to most opinions and is probably worse than a woman saying kiddush :)
I think you write in a very poignant style and I hope you meet the right guy who appreciates you for you.
I recall 3 experiences that involved a woman making kiddush/hamotzi.
ReplyDelete1) When I was still in high school and visiting UMD to see if I wanted to go there for college, I attended the large Hillel Friday night dinner. One of the male students said kiddush for everyone, after which my cousin, whom I was staying with, leaned over and informed me that they typically switched off between a guy or girl saying kiddush each week. It just so happened to be that it was a guy's turn when I was there. I was a bit aghast at the concept, primarily since I was far more yeshivish at the time, and thanked G-d that I wasn't there the week before or after.
2) My more modern cousin is married to a rather modern woman who in fact makes hamotzi in their home at every Shabbos/Yom Tov meal. When I inquired about why she did it (this was now post shana bet in Israel) she simply told me that they had a divided responsibility. She was just as much as a ba'lat habayit as her husband was, so he made kiddush for their guests and she made hamotzi. I think she also associated hamotzi with preparing/serving/providing food, which she was more in charge of than he was. I thought it was a little weird, but I didn't protest - then, or any other occasion I found myself eating there on Shabbos or Yom Tov.
3) Recently, while visiting my parents, my family was invited to eat one of the nighttime Rosh Hashana meals at the home of a divorced woman and her children. She took me aside before we started and said that she normally makes kiddush for her children since there is no longer a man of the household, but if she is hosting male guests, she feels uncomfortable doing so (she would if she only had female guests over). This woman was more yeshivish, though somewhat relaxed, and I did what she asked without hesitation.
In general, I think the concept of a woman making kiddush or hamotzi in place of a man is a bit odd - not because it is halachically unacceptable - but because as Pesach Sommer said, it's simply not the communal norm.
Also, I think I recall learning that there MIGHT be a slight issue with it being "not tzniyus," but I don't want to start a heated discussion about that.
In general, would I have started raving if a girl told me she made kiddush for male guests or wanted to do so when she's married? Certainly not. I would use it as a sign to investigate further, through conversation and discussion, how "modern" she was - meaning was this the tip of the iceberg and thus she'd be hashkafically out of my league, or was this an isolated issue. If it wasn't representative of a larger perspective clash, I wouldn't have held it against her, but I would probably be very insistent that if we ended up getting married that per my minhag/halacha/personal preference, I'd be making kiddush.
This is a very interesting post, and I hope it generates some good discussion!
http://www.yakarkehilla.org.uk/Responsa/WomenMakingKiddush.pdf
ReplyDeleteNo matter what is ok vs not ok, Friend 2's reaction was insane.
ReplyDeleteThis is the first time that I, personally, have heard of women making kiddush/hamotzi, but I hope that I wouldn't have reacted as though being possessed.
i really sympathize with women who have a great desire to be more actively involved in ritual, especially when it is fine halachikly. They will be attacked by those on the right who think they have the monopoly on appropriate religious mores.
ReplyDeleteI wish we could be more open and accepting of each other, and admire the religious passion, whenever it comes.
really who cares who says kiddush or hamotzi? if its her home, let her do as she feels fit. friend number 2 went a little overboard. rachelli.
ReplyDeleteI would never date a girl who said hamotzi or kiddush. Luckily I don't have to deal with that issue anymore but the whole things reeks of feminism and "equality" that is very misplaced. The man does his things and the wife does hers and there is harmony! Worked for out alter bubbes and zaides and it should work for us too!
ReplyDeleteFriend 2 needs to chill. Maybe this is why Friend 2 is still single.
ReplyDeleteI think the women should stay in the kitchen and the men should be doing all the mitzvos. I don't trust women with the fine details of halacha, they simply can't live up to men. That's reality.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, I'm not even sure how a girl could maintain a blog. It goes against all proven theories that women don't have brains.
You just have to look good for several years, and then have a couple of babies on your shoulder (and still look good), and then you'll inherit gan eden. Be proud of your role in life! It's all you'll amount to.
- Man and Proud of It
p.s. the past 3 shabbatot I was yotzei with a girl's hamotzi.
At anon 1/7/12 733PM
ReplyDeleteYOURE INSANE! Im an extreme anto feminist, but youre insane.
Women should not be making kiddush. It is an issue with tznius.
At anon #3
ReplyDeleteIs it? Who says that? Don't just say a statement like that without a source!
People state that kiddush is not tznius but where do you actually draw the line?
If i am the baalat ha bayit, i cooked most of the food, and some single guy came over for a meal, why should he get the zchut of making kiddush?
and at anon #2
i think you are hilarious! i couldn't believe that there are people like you still walking around the world, hysterical!
@Anon 8:17pm
ReplyDeletesar·chasm ('sär-"ka-z&m) : The giant gulf (chasm) between what is said and the person who doesn't get it.
Go move to Beit Shemesh. You'll feel right at home, with other "extreme anto[sic]-feminists".
I am married and I make hamotzei at my shabbat table.
ReplyDeleteI don't make kiddush--there is a different mitzva of kiddush for a man and a woman, and my purpose in being part of the shabbat meal ceremonials is not to shoulder my way in where I don't belong. I do think that if there are men at the table, they should make kiddush (though I think your friend's reaction was WAY over the top and totally unwarranted.)
But I make motzei because men and women have the same obligation for lechem mishna at the shabbat meal. It is a way for me to have equal part of the ceremonial part of the meal, a way for me to show my daughter without saying anything at all that women have a place in Judaism, that we can find space to be involved without having to pretend to be men or co-opt a man's halachic role.
My husband has no problem with it, btw. When we got married, we talked about the possibility, but I didn't start doing it until I was pregnant. I wanted to start a family tradition that would tell my daughter how I felt--and how I wanted her to feel--about a woman's place in Yahadus, and her Judaism, and I felt that this was a way to do it properly.
i think people are responding to this blog based only on their feelings, which is ok, but they are trying to talk about a halakhic issue without consulting the halakha. hopefully my perspective will be well-recieved.
ReplyDeletethe reason why women tend not to make kiddush for men on friday night is because a man has a d'oreisa chiyuv to be mention shabbos on friday night while a woman's chiyuv is d'rabanan. this is like the more wellknown case of different types of chiyuvim for bentsching trying to be motzi (no pun intended) each other.
this is not the whole story. since we mention shabbos in shmoneh esrei at shul, the men have already fulfilled their d'oreisa obligation and all that remains is a rabbinic insistance that shabbos be mentioned over wine (kiddush). so everything is actually d'rabanan (usually) -- why do we care if women make kiddush? we are being machmir for the shittah of the Rosh who says that the general principle of a jew being motzi another jew for mitzvos does not apply to this situation of a woman being motzi a man. that's it.
most would say this doesn't and shouldn't apply in the case of hamotzi since, unlike kiddush a birkas hamitzvah is not really being made such that one person is exempting another. hamotzi (when kiddush is also made) is relegated to basically a birkas hanehenin with a faint residue of mitzva. so even if you are concerned for the rosh in the case of kiddush, most would be less careful about his shittah's chumra in the case of hamotzi
people are welcome to, for their own personal reasons, refuse to allow a woman to make kiddush or even hamotzi but they should recognize that their decision may or may not be a halakhic one. and in cases where embarrassment or insult are involved, one should be smart enough to put personal issues or even chumros aside for the sake of the dignity of another tzelem elokim!
tizku l'mitzvos!
As friend #1, it is interesting to read people's reaction to what happened to me (No, I did not know it was being posted in TJG, but saw it now while checking the blog.)
ReplyDeleteI chose to make kiddush because I struggle with accepting the reality in which halachically permitted rituals are socially assigned to men. Things that are halachically mandated (mechitza, not counting for a minyan, etc) are hard enough to keep and respect without having to remain passive with other types of things as well.
Please know that 1.,I discussed this issue with a respectable Orthodox Rabbi who told me I could make kiddush lechatchila. 2., I spoke in advance with all the parties at my shabbat table to ensure they were comfortable (the guys present actually made kiddush for themselves after I did so, which I respected), 3. This story happened in my own apartment and in my own meal, I would never suggest this for anyone who felt uncomfortable.
I am deeply disturbed by this incident. I tried to be as un-controversial as possible. I am not sure anymore if I will make kiddush/hamotzi again..Not because I think I was wrong, but because I am afraid of my society's judging me and not offering any understanding.
To all those raving about 'tzniut' and the traditional roles of women--try to be a bit less close-minded and to understand the dissonance that some modern women feel in today's Orthodox world. I walk into a university, theater, bus or courtroom and have absolutely no limitation because of my gender. Then I have to walk into my synagogue and accept the fact that I have to be a passive participant, to sit behind the mechitzah, to not count for a minyan..I am not 'bashing' halacha. I feel a sense of commandedness and of reverence for the oral law and the halachic process. But shouldn't we allow for areas with more flexibility in which women who struggle with this issue can continue to operate as members of the Orthodox community without being branded as 'feminists', revolutionaries or having their shidduch chances decimated?!
Perhaps I will write a longer post in the future to explain this phenomenon better. Right now I'm just tired of this conversation and trying to figure out why I am being judged so much in my journey of accepting halacha and Hashem's commandments....
I had to explain to a Conservative friend today why I will never be able to become a Rabbi or count as part of a minyan. I told him that he might never understand, but that I feel bound by divine laws which might be uncomfortable to my modern sensitivities. I told him that I do not allow myself to consider leaving the 4 amot of halacha in any way and that I choose to remain orthodox and in the Orthodox community even while I have internal struggles. But it's immensely difficult, lonely and draining. I just wish I had an Orthodox community which would encourage women who are struggling with this issue to feel validated for their emotions and questions and allow them to express themselves within the Halachic world.
Friend #1, I would encourage you to keep making kiddush and motzei. You are not uninformed. You consulted an halachic authority, and you are acting from an educated and informed standpoint.
DeleteThe fact is, not everyone is as informed as you are. People might react poorly, but you are doing nothing wrong--on the contrary, you are doing something right.
As I mentioned above, in my home I make motzei. My husband is not only okay with it--he encourages it. My parents (my father, really) are less understanding. While my father accepts that I make motzei in my own home, and does not try to stop me, he does not approve, and has made that very clear.
But I have younger siblings. I have sisters and brothers. And despite clear disapproval, I feel that I have a responsibility to them--and to our shabbos guests--to make a statement with my actions. I have a responsibility to say "I am an Orthodox woman, and I can participate ritually in the shabbos meal. It is halachically acceptable. I am not trying to be a man, or take over a traditional man's role--I am just finding my way, my place in participating in my religion."
I know that it makes an impact on those who observe it. My husband is a rabbi, and we are on the frummer side in our community, and I know that when people see me make motzei at our shabbos table, it makes an impression about what women can do, and how women can participate.
I am very sorry your friend reacted so badly, but please do not let that scare you off from taking hold of your opportunities to participate ritually in your Yahadus. Not only do you have a chance to do something to make yourself feel good, you can also have a really positive impact on those who observe.
"I walk into a university, theater, bus or courtroom and have absolutely no limitation because of my gender. Then I have to walk into my synagogue and accept the fact that I have to be a passive participant, to sit behind the mechitzah, to not count for a minyan..I am not 'bashing' halacha."
ReplyDeleteI want to preface that I think the way your "friend" acted was disgusting.
You claim not to be bashing halacha but you are quite clearly doing so. You make it very clear that your measuring stick for what is right is what modern secular society deems so. Therefore, situations when Halacha conflicts with modernity make you feel uncomfortable. You write that in the secular world you are unbound but then you have to accept separation in the synagogue. If you had the utmost respect for Halacha wouldn't it be the other way around? Might you not ask "all day my actions are regulated by Torah, how can I accept that in the modern world everyone can do as they please?"
Just a thought.
With respect, the brilliance of Torah is that it is a LIVING Torah. Torah is constantly changing and adapting to the world as the world changes, and if you think that's not so, look how halacha now accommodates for electricity, and all sorts of modern inventions.
DeleteThe Torah's treatment of women, much of which now seems antiquated and oppressive, was actually somewhat revolutionary for the time period in which it was written. In my opinion (and those of the respected halachic authorities with whom I have discussed this) a living, fluid Torah means that not only does Torah and halacha adapt to technology, but it also adapts to society.
There are halachically acceptable ways for women to participate more, and become equal partners in ritual Judaism, without infringing into "trying to be a man." It's not bashing halacha to look for what halacha has been constantly doing since the dawn of Torah--changing and growing to reflect a changing and growing society.
I was talking about your attitude vis a vis mechitza, minyan etc. I don't think your comparison of electricity and modern social trends is accurate. Halacha does not now accomodate electricity while before it didn't. The halachos dealing with electricity have always been and always will be just as any true math equation is a reality regardless of its being known of or not.
DeleteTake your case on the other hand. We have a ritual which has been performed in a certain way since antiquity, and you want to do it differently because of ideals which aren't originating in Torah but in the secular society. What about minhag yisroel Torah Hi?
meant to type "her" attitude regarding mechitza.
DeletePenina--Thank you for your words and encouragement. It is good to know families like yours exist out there. I think right now I am held back by the fact that I am not married and afraid to 'ruin my reputation' (not afraid of Hashem, I don't think there's something wrong with what I did), in addition to the fact that my parents are totally not supportive of any change in traditional social norms. BH I'll find a strong partner who will help me shape a Torah home in the right way for me.
ReplyDeleteFeivel--Thank you for your question. It is one that I have thought about myself.
I hope the following points can clarify my position:
1. I view Torah (written and oral) as eternal and divine.
2. There are many 'gray' areas in this Torah that are open to interpretation. Especially when it comes to values it is sometimes difficult to tell when the torah is being descriptive of a certain historical reality or prescriptive.
3. This leads to some questions for me regarding women's roles: was the patriarchal society described in the torah an ideal or simply the historical context of the torah?
4. The reform/conservative movements have taken values and through them reinterpreted halacha. As an orthodox woman, I believe that even if our jewish society has adopted different values or even realities because of our present exile, we are still bound by torah shebeal pe and halacha.
5. Historically we have never lived in an isolated ghetto without being influenced by society--constantly, we changed as society changed (I.e., polygamy was disallowed, we don't practice slavery or indentured servitude). Just look at how different jewish communities have sometimes different jewish values today based on their origin: to pretend like jewish values haven't evolved or been reinterpreted based on reality is incorrect.
Continuation..
ReplyDelete6.This doesn't mean that I believe in absolute relativism regarding jewish values. But there are certain 'gray' areas where this is the case. The charedi community holds talmud torah and tzniut as perhaps the most important Jewish values. My community views the integration of torah umaddah as a positive and sacred jewish endevour.
7. I do not see a woman not being able to testify in court as a value, but as a Jewish legal precedent written in different historical times, which I am committed to following. THis does not mean, though, that if we had a sanhedrin/bet din hagadol today, they wouldn't change some of these halachot based on the reality around them.
8. Besides for the fact that some Jewish values are less clear than others, I see nothing wrong with acknowledging a cognitive dissonance that comes out of fully interacting with the outside world. Most Jews will not argue against certain modern/western values--such as that all men are created equal, or democracy, etc. We do not allow them, though, to guide our actions when these values conflict with Halacha. Now, when you live in a world where the norm is for women to have equal opportunities as men--and no one in the MO Jewish community speaks against this principle of having no gender differences in public transportation and work opportunities--it is very normal to have a cognitive dissonance between that overwhelming reality and some halachic practices (which again, we might be keeping only due to the fact that we have no sanhedrin to change them, not because they are inherently gender specific).
Continuation:
ReplyDelete9. I will admit that I began to feel this dissonance strongly when I began interacting with more liberal Jewish communities. Once this happened, my view on reality had to be reassessed. I couldn't deny that I am living too many paradoxes (which we all live), one of them being my roles inside and outside ritual Judaism. Now, I could deny this internal paradox, or I could address it. As someone living in the western world and wanting to think critically, I see nothing wrong with deciding to struggle internally while I keep certain laws. Don't we all struggle with some halachot? Look at the equation through my eyes (this is not about kiddush, but not counting for a minyan)--There is a ritual which has no leeway in Halakha + it contradicts my views of equality + I am not sure that the value behind the original legal precedent would be upheld today by a Sanhedrin--ergo, I will continue to observe the law but am allowed to struggle with the dissonance that is born out of this paradox. To paraphrase the Rambam--if one smells non-Kosher food, the right approach is not to say that the food smells unappetizing. Rather, one should say that one would love to each that non-kosher food, but that a divine command is limiting one's human tendencies and desires. I am trying to serve Hashem by doing what is difficult even when it doesn't make sense.
10. Last point--you ask: "We have a ritual which has been performed in a certain way since antiquity, and you want to do it differently because of ideals which aren't originating in Torah but in the secular society. What about minhag yisroel Torah Hi". I'll respond by saying that in my family the following was always minhag Israel: the husband worked, the mother stayed at home and raised his children. The husband controlled the purse of the home and usually had the final word on things. The woman got much less of an education than the husband. The woman was responsible to serve the husband and take care of his needs. In my grandmother's home (I adore her btw) I cannot say a dvar torah in front of my male cousins. It's not tzanua. They also are not allowed to help me clear the table, even when there are many guests--it is a woman's job after all. Are you suggesting we stay frozen in time and adopting all the social norms of the past? This is why I appreciate halacha (as hard as it may be) so much--it provides some clear and inflexible black/white lines that unite most of Israel. Minhagim don't.
Well written! I appreciate your explanation of your views.
ReplyDeleteYup, I totally relate to this post. I had this loose timeline of how I thought my life would go...
ReplyDeleteWell at least I had a back up contingency plan. If I'm still single in my by mid twenties I'd work damn hard and be successful. All that pent up potential I had been storing for a wife, kids and marriage is being put into a job and success.
At least this way when I do find that special someone I will rock that relationship because I've worked so hard to establish a strong foundation.