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We were sitting in his car. It was dark outside for awhile. Somehow, the night had a magic of its own and I felt safe and cradled in the front seat. He was looking at me. He was waiting for me to speak. This was a first date. But the shadchan wasn't going to be involved. I had to do this on my own.
I braced myself.
"I had fun with you," I said, "But I know you only date for Tachlis, so although I'd be happy to spend more time with you, I would hate to waste your time because in terms of marriage we aren't going to work out."
God, this was harder than I thought. He looked like someone just punched him.
"Why?" He asked. "I think we could work as a couple. I think you are smart, funny and put together."
Put together? After I heard those words, any chance there was of me being coerced into another date was over.
Put together is something you say about a seventy year old lady who is kind of cute when she wears those suits where the print on the jacket matches the skirt. Not about a twenty one year old young woman.
Perhaps he didn't want to be inappropriate, I don't know. I think he shouldn't have commented at all then.
If you are commenting on looks then go all the way.
Don't stop at put together.
How do other people feel out there about comments regarding the physical nature of the person on a first date?
I guess it depends on how you say it. Put together to me sounds like he's telling you that you dress well, not comparing you to an old lady.
ReplyDeleteI had a guy who told me he thought I had beautiful eyes on the first date. It made me a little uncomfortable honestly, but when he said it again a few dates later, it felt less weird.
Regardless, I don't think he should've said the put together line to you so early on...
A guy just told me that I look put together.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm not crazy about it.
I think compliments should wait a bit. One guy told my sister when he picked her up that he loved her perfume. She was rattled.
So lemme get this straight, u decided NOT to date a guy again because he told you that you don't look like a slob?
ReplyDeleteAnd how on EARTH can anyone decide that s/o they like isn't marriageable material after a date? It's one thnig if it's a complete disaster, but .....
Why'd she wear perfume if she didn't want the guy to notice?
ReplyDeleteI would never eliminate a man on that basis. Someone probably told him he shouldn't say the woman is pretty even if he thinks so, and that's why he said "put together".
ReplyDeleteNothin' but love for Tesyaa.
ReplyDeleteHint, ladies... YOU WANT HIM TO LIKE YOU. So why is it such a big deal when he lets you know that?
Ridiculousness.
As to the OP, from everything I've experienced, telling a woman she's put together is saying that I appreciate all the time and effort she's put into the choices, matching, make-up. Commenting on the whole as greater than the sum of each wonderful individual part.
And you'd blame the guy for saying something because of how you react to it? How about taking a moment to try and understand what he's communicating...
It wasn't the reason why I said "no" to him. Sure, a girl dresses up for a date, but that is supposed to be a given early on. And to have a near stranger compliment your looks or efforts somehow makes me feel icky, the same way if a random guy on the subway says "You're pretty." After a few dates, when that person now becomes a friend, can such compliments be fine.
ReplyDeleteTypical dudes. She didn't put on perfume for the compliment. Some things just don't have to be said right away.
No, I disagree. You are dressing to impress, and a guy is forward if he lets you know he's impressed? Maybe his social skills aren't 100% developed, or he hasn't gotten an advance copy of your rules, but that should not be a strike against him.
DeleteHe's a "near stranger", but you're also actively considering him for marriage material - only in the frum world...
And perfume is worn for two reasons - to make the wearer enticing or to cover up an embarrassing odor like cigarette smoke or body odor. I personally don't trust people who wear a noticeable fragrance (I'm a married woman).
Wow - I am learning soooo much from this post - basically you are daned if you do, damned if you don't. Compliment the perfume too early?? Don't call her hot after three dates??
ReplyDeleteYou people have too many effing rules!!
Cymbaline calm down, no one is telling you to do this.
ReplyDeleteI agree that its strange to have a near stranger compliment you. Thank G-d ive never had that. It should definitely be done later on in the relationship.
Wait so let me get this straight-
ReplyDeleteYou're dumping the guy (whether you should have given it another shot is a different issue), he has the confidence to challenge you on it,and is nice enough to articulate to you on some traits he likes you. But you're upset because he called you 'put-together' and didn't go 'all the way' and call you pretty.
Honestly, I think you're being unreasonable. He didn't owe you anything at all- he could have been a total jerk when you disaappointed him in saying you don't see it working out. But he was a mensch, was emotionally open, yet you're disappointed he didnt flatter you more??
I hope you examine your priorities and self-absorption, or you'll find yourself years down the line as a resentful bitter single who could only wish they could date someone that would have the chivalry to compliment them at all.
And no, "put-together" is not reserved for grandmas. Get over yourself.
wo wo, r u an ex or something? but i totally hear ure point.
Deleteshe was going to say no anyway...this just cinched it for her. you cannot judge what rubs people the wrong way. Something may irk you irrationally, that doesn't someone else..we all have her quarks..this is not a forum to attack tania.
ReplyDeleteWe can neither judge nor know.
ReplyDeleteNo matter what I do, chances are -with any human being, women included -I'll do something that rubs them the wrong way.
It's more about how they handle it -do they let me know? Are they open to learning my intent? Letting me know how they're reacting? Not making assumptions about what I'm trying to communicate?
Girl, sorry to say, but after reading I hope to g-d neither myself or any friends of mine ever date you.
ReplyDeleteThat was harsh!
DeleteI dont think so. Men are not toys. Although seldom displayed, men have feelings too. Going out with someone who treats them the way you described in this post is not fair to them and they dont deserve it. What will be next, youll ditch a guy because youll sneeze on a date and he'll offer you a target brand tissue as opposed to a kleenex?
DeleteThe reason I ended it was because we were completely not right for each other. He did not have the qualities I was looking for.
DeleteIt's not like we had a great date and everything was going well, he said put together, and poof, I dumped him.
Ok. After sleeping on it il give you that it may have been slightly too harsh and I apologize. However, I still agree with my premise and feel that at least by the way you made it sound in the post you were extremely insensitive / overreacting.
DeleteI rhink you should have gone out a second time. maybe he didnt want to be bold and say only after the first date you are pretty. he liked you. sounded like a nice guy. rachelli
ReplyDeleteThe reason I ended it was because we were completely not right for each other. He did not have the qualities I was looking for.
DeleteIt's not like we had a great date and everything was going well, he said put together, and poof, I dumped him.
@ Anon 3:45 PM,
ReplyDeleteThat was harsh!
I can't tell you how many funerals I've heard the Rabbi describe the elderly deceased woman as "put together" - so I entirely agree with Tania on this one.
ReplyDeleteThe guy needs to work on his communication and word choices. This is also why I highly recommend using a go-between for the first few dates. If you don't know how to end a relationship respectfully, then you shouldn't be the one doing it.
At least he was honest about thinking it wouldn't work out, but I think his offer that he would continue going out for fun shows he was not in the right ballpark at all.
Put Together for someone in their twenties is a huge compliment. Both for guys and girls.
ReplyDeleteIt means your someone who shows exemplary traits and values someone who is likely accomplished.
Perhaps it's not one of your values... maybe you and everyone else who agrees with you would much prefer a complete Learner for a spouse. Or Someone perhaps uneducated, no job, no drive, no ambition, no tact, no values for self sufficiency. No accomplishments.
Maybe a guy shouldn't give a compliment on a first frum/shidduch date. Girls tend to get uncomfortable when a guy is too forward... But HONESTLY I give huge props to any guy with the Kahunas to compliment a girl on a date. It's hard enough being shomer, a gentleman, or your knight in shining armor...
If a guy gives a compliment on a date, and he's a genuine nice guy, then he's just being sincere... he's just trying to compliment you and he's playing his hand... showing his cards... he's interested in you. It's a risk he's taking by being open.
Girls complain they can sometimes never tell if a guy is interested... well the compliment is his honest to god innocent way of showing it.
Yes there will be exceptions... some guys have ulterior motives and want something more.. but most guys are just trying to find a way to say something nice about you to you.
Your reason for ending things is a different issue, one you are completely right about doing.
If I could bold this I would - Please don't castrate a guy for trying to man up and compliment a girl he finds interesting. You do yourself and every man out there a huge disfavour.
(not to get off track, I'm not saying a Learner is a loser, but a large majority of them simply don't have their life together... Many of these men have huge potential... unfortunately many don't use it... or not until late in life...)
Personally I think guys shouldn't comment on looks until WAY into a relationship, it makes me highly uncomfortable-so I totally disagree with the statement "if you're going to comment on looks then go all the way"-certainly that is not true re: a first date! I've had situations in which guys comment about my hair and eyes and even eyelashes (I guess because they're trying to communicate that they appreciate my appearance in a more sensitive manner than "going all the way") and I just felt like "why are you so comfortable commenting on my appearance? At least pretend that you're paying attention to a thing I'm saying?!"...you know? I dunno...I might be a little hypersensitive about this. So I would agree with the assessment that via the "put together" comment he was trying to tell you that he appreciates your looks in a sensitive manner (and I think it was probably the most sensitive/best choice of phrase given his intent), though, as prior stated, I think it's wiser to err on the side of caution in this category of compliments.
ReplyDeleteI really disagree with you that "put together" is a phrase reserved for describing old ladies...I use it all the time describing my 20 yr old friends! I've even described guys that way, if it's apt. It's not necessarily a description of physical beauty, more like that a person puts him/herself together well-ie. dresses and does her hair/makeup nicely, looks polished, looks "done", as opposed to not really taking care with how he/she looks, or looking sloppy, etc.
To me ALL this is besides the point. She says she likes him, and he likes her. So his poor choice of word skills is a reason to dump him? The fact that he compliments her is a reason to dump him?
ReplyDeleteThe problem with orthodox jews is they put everyone into boxes and label them. And not everyone fits in a box. You know what? some guys are really nice and honest and if they like something about you they say it, damn the consequences.
If you have too many rules and look for too many triggers....well that could make it very very hard to actually find someone. Those darn box and label systems aren't all that accurate.
I happen not to agree with your definition of the expression "put-together". I find it is commonly-used in the shidduch world-just means he found you were dressed nicely and looked polished but that is NOT the point. If a guy told me i looked put-together and i disliked the expression, I would start laughing and explain that "put-together" reminds me of "a seventy year old lady who is kind of cute when she wears those suits where the print on the jacket matches the skirt". like you said "Dates aren't mind readers". My rule of thumb in dating is I say what is on my mind even if it might come out a little embarrassing (OBVIOUSLY WITH SOME EXCEPTIONS!!)
ReplyDelete