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I walked into a room where a young man and woman were in the middle of a cozy conversation in the late hours of the night. They were not dating each other.
I felt uncomfortable, but they were sweet and invited me to join the conversation.
The guy asked me the following question which I am now passing on to you.
"Do you think it is beneficial for a woman to have an emotional and possibly physical relationship with a guy whom she has zero chances of marrying while dating other people?"
I was blown away by the question. Seriously?!
I mean, maybe there is some fringe benefit to having a relationship if you never had one before, but the costs outweigh the benefits by tons, so if someone really needs help, they should go see a therapist.
As it is, in so many relationships people end up breaking up, people should now also get into relationships which will for sure never work out?
And besides, it has to be unhealthy to open up to someone knowing there are no chances at all. Sounds to me like a bunch of messed up cases.
And never while you are dating other guys!
The guy was looking at me as if I'm the most close minded fafrumpte fachneukt that ever existed. He said: "You clearly don't have guy friend who you hang out with a lot one on one."
"I clearly don't", I said. "When I do hang out with someone, it always gets to a point where we have to stop and decide if we are dating or not."
He asked: "And you don't think you can have a relationship with someone you won't end up marrying and truly like them?"
I responded: "That is precisely why people date for a while-because they like each other, and why they break up-because they won't end up marrying each other. That is why break ups hurt so much. Because there is a connection which isn't meant to last."
I have to mention that the guy asking this question was one who is in no position to marry, and all the girls he wants to date would never date him, so there he is, making up theories so that quality girls will have relationships with him. He could "help them" open up emotionally and physically and prepare them for marriage. Uhuh, so much for your wishful thinking, tzaddikel.
What do you think?
Your reaction reminded me of a great line from Dr. Berger's introduction to Nizzahon Vetus: "One of the sharpest points of contention in the early confrontation between Jews and Christians . . . was the famous assertion that Christians are the true . . . Israel. The most succinct summary of the instinctive Jewish reaction to this assertion is the Greek quotation from Dialogue With Trypho . . . 'What?!' said Trypho. 'You are Israel?!'"
ReplyDeleteLachzor le-'inyaneinu, in laymen's terms, SERIOUSLY?!?!?
I agree with your response. I wrote something similar about being "just friends": http://princessofhashem.blogspot.com/2011/11/best-of-both-worlds-emotional.html
ReplyDeleteHis reasoning sounds like justifications for his actions.
agreed. no such thing as platonic relationships. At any given moment in the relationship, chances are one of them, if not both, will have feelings for the other, even if they tell themselves that in general, they are not attracted to each other
ReplyDeleteeh.....disagree. i've had many platonic relationships - and they were all full of mutual respect, genuine love and friendship. in fact, my dearest friend coached me through dating my husband, as he was a good friend of his as well. now he is married and although i am not particularly close with his wife, my husband and i maintain a deep friendship with him. i think there is a misconception in the religious world that there can never be platonic relationships. i agree that physicality can change friendships into something more or something less, but a good emotional friendship is definitely possible and happens everywhere outside of the religious world.
ReplyDeleteYou have inspired a post, and given me a reason to share a very interesting youtube video I found recently: http://walkingthegreyline.blogspot.com/2012/01/are-platonic-friends-possible.html
ReplyDeleteSo my husband and I always joke that platonic relationship exist- as long as you're only asking one of the parties involved. Very often, a friendship can seem platonic as long as you're not surveying the other person's feelings-- and that's how we can trick ourselves into believing it's possible.
ReplyDeleteLooking back now on my dating years, most of my friendships with guys were not platonic. Either I was interested in them (I may not have been conscious of it because I knew it would make things complicated) or they were interested in me (also something I wasn't necessarily conscious but found out much later on). I had situations with guys I was good friends with and ended up hooking up, and I still carry guilt that I did that....not just because it's halachically wrong, not just because it was secretive and I hated feeling like a fake, but because I wish I had more self-respect to say 'I don't have to do this to feel loved'.
I am now happily married to a wonderful man, but god I wish I had more boundaries in some of my pre-marital friendships with guys.
PS- I was never a 'slut' and not someone you'd tag as the type to struggle with this. But I'm human, I was lonely, was frustrated with dating, and didn't love myself enough to realize I actually deserved better.
@ WaHi,
DeleteThank you for sharing.
I love the way you said "I wish I had more self-respect to say 'I don't have to do this to feel loved'. "
I have been grateful for some deep, emotional (and non platonic, sometimes mutually) relationships I had with guys I was not dating. Some physical, some not. I have more than a few friends who also have had similar positive experiences. While you may be correct that it is generally unwise to participate in such a relationship, it is completely unfair (and demonstrably wrong) of you to imply that ALL RELATIONSHIPS OF THIS NATURE ARE BAD ALL THE TIME.
ReplyDeleteI would be shocked if the man who posed the question to you was under the presumption that it is always a beneficial arrangement. It patently is not. The only question is whether it CAN be, in a certain case, that the benefits outweigh the costs. And to this you are indeed close-minded and out of touch with reality if you do not answer yes.
I went through a four year drought without having a semi-serious dating relationship. It was not easy. There is an emotional, physical, and psychological void that sometimes can only be filled by a deep connection with a man. You may have never experienced that, but contrary to what you seem to believe, it is not exclusively your future husband who can potentially alleviate that void.
I have a friend who had her first real relationship at 27. With a guy she wasn't dating. But it was so evident that the confidence, equanimity, and general optimism that are commonly lacking (sadly) in such women were finally restored beyond healthy levels. She did hurt after it ended, but there is no question in her mind the benefit outweighed multiple times over. She developed more confidence in her appearance, and generally became more adept at opening up, and being vulnerable, to subsequent dates.
Acknowledging some benefit (for some people) of such an arrangement does not mean claiming that it is the best way to achieve that benefit (though it is conceivable that in some cases it is). You are right, in many cases therapy is likely a more effective alternative (if the "benefit" is related to a deeper issue; I don't think longing for some physical/emotional connection should send one to therapy). But that is irrelevant. Aside from the fact that many women will not or cannot engage in therapy, this is a theoretical discussion about POTENTIAL benefit.
"As it is, in so many relationships people end up breaking up, people should now also get into relationships which will for sure never work out?"
If you are having so many relationships that are breaking up, then maybe you would not find that such an arrangement would benefit you. But not everyone has dates every month. And many people go years without getting into an even semi-deep relationship. Have you considered that maybe for some of those people, the cost benefit analysis could lead to a different conclusion than for you?
I know for me, it WAS healthy for me to open up to a guy who I knew i did not have a future with. And for him to open up to me. Opening up (and yes, being physical), are meaningful and helpful while dating, and while married. Why can it not be helpful (to some degree) while single? I do not consider it "love," nor do I think it can come close to the bond formed by opening up in a real relationship, but it can be special, cathartic, and gratifying nonetheless, especially when the alternative is...nothing. Particularly when it is with someone whom you appreciate, respect, find attractive, and feel safe with (though, for whatever reason, you are not inclined to marry).
"When I do hang out with someone, it always gets to a point where we have to stop and decide if we are dating or not." You may not be able to form a normal, healthy friendship with a man, but most people can (just look around). And anyways, this is neither here nor there.
(I also want to clarify that while you (and I) have looked at this from a woman's perspective, the same arguments apply to men. Perhaps more so, as they are typically affected less by loss and heartbreak.)
(Continued)
ReplyDeleteI did not intend to write so much, but I guess I got very passionate about this issue because i feel personally disparaged. How can you decide for other people what is wise for them or not?!?! Maybe you get dates, and form deep relationships, and are so emotionally unregulated that you need to nip budding relationships early because your hurt will be too great. But not everyone is like you! Baruch Hashem I am finally in a serious relationship now, but I know I have benefited tremendously from deep non-dating relationships, physical and not. And I have friends who have too. And even for people who have benefited, that does not mean it is always more beneficial. But it can be. And that's the point.
This approach may not work for you (though it sounds like you have never tried it, so even your own personal opinions on the matter are not all that well-founded). But it works for a lot of other people (who have actually tried it!). Just go out to the real world and see. And while it does seem like the questioner is simply trying to rationalize his own sketchy behavior, for you to project your opinions, values, emotional disposition, and situational assessments on countless people who DO engage in and rationally appreciate these relationships seems to me to be the very definition of close-minded.
open minded - I'm not so sure there are "countless people" who do this sort of thing and benefit as you claim. The only supporters I've seen write responses are a minority of women. Even leaving aside the halachic implications and problems that go along with having close opposite gender friendships (physical or otherwise), any benefit seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
ReplyDeleteNothing is absolutely concrete when it comes to human behavior, but simply because a minority of individuals have experienced some positive interactions, which came along with a healthy dose of negative ones, does not mean that close male-female non-dating/marriage relationships should be accepted as a norm.